Healing Through Humility with Jon Vroman
This is a special episode with a very important guy in my life – Jon Vroman, or “JV” as I like to call him.
Jon and I have a very open conversation about healing, deep self discovery and true humility. I’m very grateful for the space Jon created in this episode. You won’t find a more authentic dialog.
I’m also just blown away by the way Jon shows up in life. From the moment I heard his voice on a podcast 4 years ago I remember thinking, “I gotta find out what this guy is up to…”
Since then he welcomed me into his community, provided mentorship, became a friend, and continues to inspire me to this day. Jon and Front Row Dads have changed the trajectory of my life in many ways.
Thank you, Jon Vroman, for the leadership, community and impact you’re creating in this world.
“I’m in such a place of recognizing all of what I’ve learned in the last couple of years, and then it starts to peak my curiosity as to what don’t I know that I don’t even know.”
- Front Row Dads
- FRD Live (Event: Dec 2022)
- How to Have a Miracle Marriage with Hal Elrod
- Beqoming (book)
[00:00:00] Ali: All right, folks. Welcome back to the Pursuit of Something. Ali here with a very special guest, Mr. Jon Vroman. I like and have the privilege I suppose, of calling him JV. Jon is a very important person in my life. I was contemplating a variety of words to use there. And some of this he knows some of it he may not know.
Jon, you've actually been a huge inspiration for why I started podcasting. I still listen to the FRD podcast, monthly, if not several episodes a month. And I've always appreciated the way you flow. So, thank you for that. Just being a model, a source of inspiration for podcasting, cuz it gave me a lot of courage and you've been very generous to give me some tips.
You're also a very big deal in the Jafarian household, whether you know it or not. I've shared a few clips with you as friends, but the funniest thing you don't know is that any time I say Jon, Sepie and Everest say, Jon Vroman and actually previous to that, even though I know quite a few Johns, previous to that, Sepia would call you Jon Roman.
And we just rolled with it because she's in this cute phase of saying something and just drastically mispronouncing and Gabrielle and I look at each other and just sort of smile it off. So you were previously Jon Roman now you're Jon Vroman and the most popular Jon that comes up.
[00:01:25] Jon: I like it. I could change my name, that actually rolls off the tongue, nicely, Jon Roman.
[00:01:29] Ali: And lastly, dude, you've just had a profound impact on my life. Many people who listen to this podcast or who know me, know my involvement and relationship with FRD. And it's even hard for me to describe in words, but I know we'll talk a bit about it today. On what it's brought to my life, what it's brought to the Jafarian household and just the overall impact that we're making as humans in the world. And aside from just my gratitude to FRD, just gratitude towards you. Just being a friend, being a leader, being a mentor. You also have a infectious laugh. Every time I'm around it and I hear it, especially when we're together like at retreats and stuff, I fucking love your laugh. So keep laughing.
[00:02:12] Jon: Definitely, I stand out with my laugh for sure. Everybody knows it's me.
[00:02:16] Ali: It is a great laugh. So without further ado, how would you like to introduce yourself beyond what I just said?
[00:02:23] Jon: I would say that I'm a man who every year the bio becomes perhaps less important and what's not on that bio is more fascinating to me than anything else. I'm in such a place of recognizing all of what I've learned in the last couple of years. And then it starts to peak my curiosity as to what don't I know that I don't even know, like what's truly a blind spot for me.
I so badly wanna play in that space. I'm yearning for more true surprises in my life. Things that I have yet to uncover. And a lot of that just means going inward right now. I felt like a lot of my twenties and thirties were expansive and like wanting to see the world. And now I wanna see my inner world more than I ever have.
[00:03:08] Ali: Mm-hmm. That makes me wanna ask you a bit about identity. Because the way you answered that, which I thought was beautiful is like, I'm getting more and more clarity on perhaps not needing to have these identities or hold relationship to them. Do you have thoughts on that? Cause it's I ask that from a place of deep curiosity, but also just been paying attention to how people use identity and labels.
[00:03:35] Jon: So how fast do we want to go down the rabbit hole here, man? Do I need to warm up your audience a little?
[00:03:40] Ali: No, no, there's no warm up.
[00:03:43] Jon: Where I drop into this, you know, this space. Okay. And everything's on the table, right? We can talk about everything? You got it. Yeah. Okay. So here's the real answer to this. This is the Ali and JV hanging at a coffee shop. Like you asked me this question and I'm unfiltered right now, right? Oh yeah.
And I realize that also as a disclaimer, I should say that what I am about to reveal is probably triggering for some people or will peak a lot of curiosity for some people. And some people might be adamantly opposed to this journey that I'm about to share. But it is my truth. And therefore I will share it, Mm-hmm, cause it's true for me.
So several weeks ago I did a very intentional two day event where the intention was healing. The intention was discovery for myself and how might I be able to open myself more to love? How might I might heal some trauma that I'm either conscious or unconscious of? This was the intention of the event. Two days.
The support for this, if you call it medicine or whatever words you would use was psilocybin, mm-hmm, was the basis, so mushrooms. And that was the base of the experience. And that led me into a journey where I put on an eye shade and for the next three or four hours, what I experienced was ultimately, not intellectually, what I'm about to share. I didn't intellectually have this experience. I, in my body fully lived the experience of what someone might call, moving to an alternate universe, being in heaven as an example.
Right? Mm-hmm. What happened was I was in a place where imagine the tether to life was completely cut. I had no attachment at all in my body. And I was like fully present to this feeling in my body that I was no longer married to my wife. I was no longer a dad. I didn't own my kids type of feeling. I didn't have a job. I had no responsibilities. It was like somebody lifted the weight of the world off of your shoulders for a moment. And I remember being in this place and I remember laughing and going, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. This is what, I'm now in the know, I now understand. I now get it. I now understand that this was just a journey that I was on.
And I felt what it was like to have no connection to any of that any longer. As if you were standing in heaven, looking down, just going, wow, all of that had to happen the way that it happened. It was almost this beautiful feeling of everything, all the tragedy, all the pain, everything that in my life had to happen the way that it happened.
But for the first time in my entire life, I felt like I knew what it was like to let go of the ego. Mmm. I had nothing to protect. I had nobody to impress. There was nothing I could do. There's nothing I could achieve. It was just a complete reflection on this world. Now, the message of that for me was let go. It was let go in a sense of like, let go to holding on so hard to the things that you want to control, but you should not try to control. You should let go of those things.
We could spend the next three years, in the gray area of what that means. So you're saying Jon, I should just go home and be like, kids do whatever you want. I mean, I'm not here to control you. No, that's not what I'm saying. And I'm not saying you should go home and try to control your children's every move. Mm-hmm. And how they act and how they respond and take it so personally.
There is a place where you recognize that you are a participant, you're an active participant. You're an influence in this world for sure. But man, what I felt was something I'd never felt in my entire life. And I walked away and I still have like weeks and weeks later, a tremendous sense of peace that I've never ever felt before in my entire life.
[00:08:05] Ali: Mm-hmm. Wow.
[00:08:08] Jon: And I could literally talk for hours on this. That was me doing my very best to keep that concise. That is me trying my very best to keep that concise. And I'm just scratching the surface.
[00:08:22] Ali: Wow. Yeah. That is huge. I've heard people describe different experiences in a similar realm. In fact, it just had a recording with a good friend who is very much on a mission to help parents via psychedelic experiences. Something he said that rings right in line with this is letting go of ego. Softening ego. Understanding, being aware of ego. It's such a powerful thing. I got goosebumps, I just felt the shivers when I heard you and then I went to my notepad when you said, "I felt like I was in heaven" with no, my mind filtered with no attachments.
[00:09:10] Jon: Correct. That's right.
[00:09:12] Ali: Which seems unfathomable. Like, what do you mean, no attachments?
[00:09:17] Jon: Yeah. And we can get there intellectually. You're like, oh, I, I can understand if I had no job I'd probably feel really free. I don't feel that. But, but actually what about feeling it? Right? Like, like it was real. That's what happened. I never in any intellectual exercise prior to this of all the letting go and what do you need to say no to, and block your schedule. And, you know, don't take that on. Don't take that personally, all of that, nothing even was remotely close to the embodied experience of that, which I will never forget.
And I'm grateful that I had that moment, cuz it also gave importance to this because I recognized what it was like to not be attached to all these things. So now I want to snuggle up to my kids, not because I own them, but because it's a privilege to be here for that moment. Mm-hmm. That will one day not be here.
[00:10:09] Ali: Yep. Something else I have to interject here because this is very apropos to our conversation, JV and something we've talked about in more intimate circles in FRD. And I just talked about with Gabrielle and has, has been recurring more, is this understanding this awareness as parents, that sometimes we do not like being parents. And it's one of the shittiest things we can say. And then our ego's, like what? What'd you just say? Right.
Whereas saying it for me has been step one, feeling it is step two. And then to your point, when I know I've really felt it is when I have that counter experience where I'm like, damn, and now I really love being a dad in this instance. But I'm bringing this up because a pattern I see with a lot of humans is this responsibility to being a parent.
You've talked about this before. Not really choosing it, not owning it and just rolling into it. But then what I see all over the place, and I'm just saying from awareness, I'm not trying to create any judgment here is people with this burden, it's like, ah, the kids, all the activities. It's almost this game that you have to question like, then why are you fucking playing it?
When in reality, what I just felt from what you shared is like, there is an inevitable attachment and we're using children as an example, the burden that we feel, but sometimes we don't really feel it. And you not only felt it, but then you also got to feel almost beyond it. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just wild.
[00:11:47] Jon: Yeah. If I take you all the way back to decades ago, I remember early mentors in my life talking about getting it in your body. Mm-hmm. Right. And the difference of like reading something in a book and getting it in your body, I believe that these types of immersive experiences and not just plant medicines, which can really be hyped up and they're not for everybody and not everybody should do it. And if you did wanna do it, you should do a lot of homework and you should really be careful in proceeding there. But really this is about immersive experiences.
I equally could talk about the benefit of just the fact that I took two days out of my life. And even if I was not doing anything, but sitting with a journal and having great conversation and trying to feel things that I don't normally give myself space to feel would be very important because I'm really good at stimulating myself through the day and being busy and moving to the next thing and being task oriented.
And that, uh, space becomes more and more valuable. However you get there. But that space often brings up these feelings. Like, I didn't know I had that feeling. So I'll give you another example.
I went to a, a shamanic healer here in Austin. I know this sounds really "woo" in some ways, even coming out of my mouth, I feel like that, but it was a Front Row Dad, brother who recommended me to this woman and I went out to see her and she was like, we're gonna do this breathing and then I'm gonna, you know, put you on the table and I'm gonna ask you some questions. And even at this point, 47 years old, I've done so much work, so much therapy, so many events, I feel I'm really open, you know, and, and yet there's still this little voice in my head that's like, this might be total bullshit. What am I gonna learn here that I haven't learned somewhere else? Like, there's all this, right. And she puts me on the table and she starts drilling down real fast. I'm getting impressed by how quickly she's picking up on this stuff.
Mm-hmm. And interestingly, this will get to our pregame chat. We start talking about dancing. And one of the things about Tatiana that I am envious of is her ability to dance. I'm not a dancer. I don't wear bright and colorful clothing, really. I don't love to dance. I don't express myself like this is all Tatiana. It's one of the reasons I love her, right, is because if she is this way. And we were talking about how I can become resentful of her, that we have all this responsibility and yet she can just dance.
And I'm like, must be so nice that you can just dance when I have to shoulder all this responsibility. So glad that I could provide this amazing life for you while you're just dancing, you know, must be great. So I get angry at that. Right. And I start picking on her and judging her and being condemning. But the reality is that I am envious of her. That's the discovery is like, I'm envious of her. I want to be that laid back. I want to be that carefree. I want to be that happy. Right. And I feel that I can't, cuz I tell myself a story that I need to do all these things to, to be enough and to be validated, to be a man and all this stuff. Right. Mm-hmm.
Um, and the woman, she starts talking to me about this and then she goes, well, where did that start? And what was your earliest memories? And we're like probably 45 minutes into this session, Ali and I'm laying on the table and then she's like, what happened. Tell me your earliest memory, maybe like, what is your five year old? And I'm cutting some corners here to get you back to the point. But I go, when I was five my dad came home one day from work and I was hiding under the desk and I was like, I'm gonna surprise him. I'm gonna jump out and be like, Baahh! He's gonna like laugh and it's gonna be great. Dude, he turned around and he was pissed. He was so angry. And by the way, I'm not angry at my dad right now for this.
I scared the shit out of him after a long day at work. And he just reacted, this primal reaction, right? As a 47 year old, I'm not mad at him, but dude, I'm telling this story to this woman and I start bawling. I start bawling, like uncontrollable, ugly cry, the kind of crying I don't do. I don't do, I didn't even know where it came from.
Mm-hmm. And something cracked open, and I'm like, holy shit, man. There's some real trauma that I have never addressed. Like deeply. Now I've told people about that story, but I never felt it. I never got there. So a couple things I'm trying to make the point of one is that this was zero plant medicine. This is just breath work and a good counselor and deep dives. So that's one thing I wanted to mention.
The second thing is that I've come to realize that 47, where I'm arguably the most successful in every area of my life that I've ever been. I'm the strongest I've ever been. I'm making more money than I've ever made in my life. I have more time in my life than I've ever had. I live in the city I wanna live in. My wife and I are constantly growing our relationship. Not saying it's always good. That's one of the most challenging parts of my life is my relationship with my wife.
Mm-hmm. But dude, arguably in all areas, I'm the best I've ever been. And what I'm realizing is that, healing is what I think is the next thing that I really need to focus on in order to grow. From this point forward, I don't need another, not at this present moment in my life, and I'm not poking at this, but I don't need another framework for success. I don't need to know these things of how to scale my business or achieve more or financially become more of this or that. Or, and not that there's not tons of room for growth in those areas for me, because there is, but I know in my core, without anybody telling me what I need to do, that healing is the real work for me right now.
And I believe that I'll be a better husband. I will be a better dad. I will be a better businessman. That is the lead domino for me in my life right now with everything. And because I've got my ego in check enough to where I'm allowing myself to step into these spaces. I'm allowing myself to break down and cry ugly tears and just step on that table with this woman and say, all right, let's figure out what's here. Mm-hmm. I'm discovering that there's a lot of trauma in my life.
And there's some people that tell stories and you're like, holy cow! You know, kidnapped. And like all the, like it's crazy stuff, right? There's crazy trauma in people's lives that make my childhood look like I had zero trauma. But the truth is that there's real trauma there for all of us, whatever it might be. You know, somebody said something really nasty to you. Somebody ignored you. Somebody was indifferent to you. You made up a story. You locked something in at your core.
And I was telling you earlier, and I think this is worth repeating. I've recognized that a lot of things I want to do in life were like, I wanna learn to dance. I'm gonna come full circle here about the Tatiana comment. I wanna learn to dance like Tatiana. But I've got a broken leg and until I heal the broken leg, I'm not gonna dance. Mm-hmm. So as much as I'm envious and I want to dance like Tatiana dances, I kept trying to ask myself, how can I live a life where I can be a dancer? What do I need to do? What do I have to add to my schedule? How do I need to change myself? Do I need a new affirmation? Do I need all these things to become the dancing husband she's always wanted? Right. And now I'm realizing I got a broken leg. And until I mend that broken leg, I'm never gonna be able to get on the dance floor with her.
[00:18:57] Ali: Wow. Not only is that beautiful because it's about as transparent and vulnerable as we can get. You also straight up answered the question of this show, What's In Focus? So thank you for taking us right there. And I wanna reflect back to you that...
[00:19:20] Jon: Which I love that question by the way, and ask that all the time.
[00:19:23] Ali: I know you do. When you do it sparingly, when we're together with the guys, I'll admit I get a little dopamine. So yeah, that's my ego fluttering a bit. But I wanna reflect back to you that it takes a lot of courage to share what you just shared. And I, 100% agree with a lot of those statements from a place of pure empathy. Like I've been wrestling these last few years with problems that I'm so guilty to even think I should be wrestling with.
And I don't even like the word should, but that's what comes to mind. Like, why am I even dealing with this shit? And not in a way where like it's major stress. It's almost like I fabricated stress. From stories, from trauma. And again, I don't have this terrible childhood story that we hear about and we're like that's some real trauma, but I do have trauma.
And now I see trauma that I'm actually creating in my children. I'm aware of the trauma...
[00:20:22] Jon: Totally.
[00:20:22] Ali: That my parents have given to me and not in a resentful way. Just be like, boom, there it is. Now I see the pattern and I can go up the chain and make some sense of this and we can have a dialogue which has been beautiful.
But what I want to reflect back to you is that it's been interesting that I didn't realize how much I needed to heal or how much I've been healing until you said that. Mm. I thought I was just on an interesting, and still am, an interesting journey of finding deeper meaning and purpose in life, which I think a lot of people go through in their own ways. At least I've been learning.
But your words are so powerful because they make me realize that part of what's true for me as well, is healing. I wanna also point something out. And I, I did a solo podcast on this after our last FRD retreat, but that breathing experience that we did, which people can go listen to, Mm-hmm, a little more detail. I'm gonna use similar words, cracked me open. I got a mini crack from one of our homies on our one on one session before that. And then that thing cracked me open and I didn't get to I didn't get to heaven quite like you, which now I'm intrigued. But I got to a place where I was like, holy shit.
I didn't know I had so much emotion and that I could even release it like this and that in its sense is exactly what healing is about, right? Mm-hmm.
[00:21:55] Jon: Yeah, yeah. Dude, as you're talking, I had this memory pop up. I'm at this ceremony, another event, and this woman leader, she goes, if anybody wants to come up to the front of the room, if you want a healing or a blessing, you can come up to the front of the room.
And dude, this is how much my ego is in control. I thought to myself, I don't have anything that needs to be healed, but I sure would like a blessing, you know. Like how amazing is it to be at a place in your life where nothing needs to be healed. And I, I laugh at that, but I also laugh in a loving way, not in a judgemental way about myself, because a lot of what I built in my life, Ali, was on purpose. So that I could build, so that I could make money, so that I could thrive.
Learning to see the silver lining, learning to find the gift and the challenge, learning to just put my head down. And you could come up with all the quotes that align with this, right? Like put the blinders on and just go get so laser focused.
Well, the challenge with laser focus is you, you don't notice all these things. Mm-hmm. You're not paying attention. Mm-hmm. You know, I do these, all these things in life. And while this greatness was being achieved, and that's not me patting myself on the back, it felt great for me, right. This is my own journey. I felt accomplishment. Man, there was so much stuff that was being trampled along the way. There was so much stuff in my peripheral view that was being ignored so that I could achieve those things. And now I'm just trying to widen my gaze a little bit in life and feel and see a little more.
And I think that that's just part of the journey. I don't think everybody should be there. Or I don't think it's the right time for everybody to be in this path. But maybe if you're listening to this, maybe if you've gotten this far. Right. Maybe if there's something being peaked or a curiosity for you, then maybe that's why we're all here right now.
[00:23:56] Ali: Well, it's not a maybe for me, it's fairly absolute for me. And the question I wanna ask because you are here and I feel like, especially after feeling some of your energy around this, I feel like I'm in a similar place. Let's just say that. Do you think we know the extent of how much we need to heal or is it, this is such a hard question to ask, or is it something that just goes on in perpetuity?
[00:24:29] Jon: I think we'll never know. I think we can't know. And I think that's the essence of a real blind spot, a real blind spot is you don't know. Mm-hmm. You have no idea. Cuz if you did, it wouldn't be a real blind spot. And I think that a lot of the things that are revealed, which is why it's so important to say yes to environments and people and processes. And if you feel called to something, then listen to that calling and go step into that.
Because when I was doing these type of healing ceremonies, I remember saying to myself and to anybody that would listen to me, that was around me in that moment was like, there are no words to describe what just happened. Literally in the English language, right. And at 47 years old, I have never experienced anything even remotely close. Like the game we play where you're like, well, it's kind of like Dave Matthews meets Grateful Dead.
You could try all day long to explain what this is. But in some ways somebody just has to be called to the moment, to the circle, to the group, to the event, to the space, to the journal, to the book, to the whatever it is, to the meditation that will allow them to find that next thing that's going to be revealed on their journey.
And then you're a different person. Then you're operating sometimes with a totally different blueprint. Then sometimes your whole world just gets rocked and you're like, dude, the paradigm. What I thought for the last 20, or that's a whole new thing to now deal with. Everything I once thought, I'm now questioning. Right. Woo.
[00:26:08] Ali: Well said. This actually hits on something that we've discussed with one of our good buddies, Mike Wagner, is that, the three of us have had some really interesting 5:00 AM convos, which I still remember and in some ways recite. But we jam on philosophy in a fun way, whenever Wagner and I get together. And he's helped me really formulate these metaphors around mountains and rivers. And most recently, this concept of the cosmos, which is peace. So mountains - achievement, river is surrender to floating and paying attention to what's presented. And then the cosmos is just being, right.
What I found dude, is that I've been in the river for a while. Not only has the river brought me more instances of being in the cosmos of peace and less worry or less control of being on those mountains, even though I'm still on mountains. Most of us are right. But it just allows me to see these things, to have more awareness and to pay attention and be like, oh, that's interesting. That wants to happen. When the previous version of me would've been like, fuck that, no, I can control my destiny. That's not happening. That's not who I am.
Whereas lately, a lot of this healing has been a result of that, of just paying attention. And metaphorically floating and being like, oh damn, I'm broken in this area. And with what we were just talking about the other day is like, the fun part that still presents a challenge is at a certain point though, you're like, damn, I've been floating for a while. I gotta get out of this river.
Maybe you do, maybe you don't, which is your point. We all can find our healing when we need to find it, but I have a similar sense where it's like, okay, I've been in the river for a while. I do feel called now to get out and start doing some things.
[00:27:54] Jon: Yeah. To me, that's the part of it is just listening more deeply. My personal experience has been that the thing that I'm continually being surprised by is how might I listen differently or more deeply. And in what different ways and how else can I hear that? How else can I see that? How else can I experience that? It's perspectives and shifts in those perspectives and being able to just let go of trying to be right about so many things and realize there's so many ways to experience life.
And that's why, you know, if I go back to my wife for a minute, I get so angry at her when she doesn't do life the way I want her to, the way I think we need to in order for this thing to work out. And the visualization that helped me more than anything. And I don't remember where I first felt this, but I could see it, I could feel, it was like, she's just this like little spirit floating through this planet. In this hundred years that she gets, she's just this spirit, right? And I'm this spirit over here and our spirits collided and we're kind of doing this spiritual thing together.
And my spirit keeps going to her spirit, like, bad spirit, your spirit needs to do life this way. Right. Like you need to be on time. And then her Spirit's like, what's time and you're like, this shit we made up so that everybody could, right. And you're like, well, I don't really wanna do time. And I'm like bad spirit. You know, she's just the spirit floating through this planet doing this thing. And she's like, well, I won't park in the middle of the driveway, but I'm like, but in my world, you park on the right side of the driveway. And she's like, but I'm just little spirit wanting to park anywhere. And I'm like bad spirit.
[00:29:34] Ali: I love your personas here.
[00:29:36] Jon: Dude. But when I say it like that, it makes me feel so silly, right. That of like in the billions of years, that this whole thing has been floating and existing and, you know, manifesting into all right. It's like of all this, I get this, my, my human body, this body bag, this body suit that I get to wear for a hundred years and she gets to be here.
And yet. I've somehow subscribed to like all these things that as a society we've made up and like, this is how it has to go this way and that'll get so angry. Right. And so resentful and so righteous about all these things. And I was like, what would it look like to fully accept Tatiana as her spirit and be like, yeah, you know what?
We get such limited time on this planet. Like you be, you, you be your best fullest expression of you. And my work now I've found my greatest work is not trying to talk to her in a way that she'll get it. Like that used to be my work all through my thirties. Like, well, if I say it this way, she'll really get it.
And then if I put it on paper and I ask her, and then I do this and I played this game, this therapist taught me. And now I'm in the game at this point in my life to say, how can I accept her? Fully and completely, what would that look like? And, and I understand that some of these things are, are easy for somebody to hear and go, yeah, John, that sounds great.
Like must be nice to just be in a place of like full acceptance, but like, we got shit to do. Kids gotta be picked up. Things have to happen. Like I understand. You have to take from this, that which serves you and put it in your life. And the, because again, I don't know what's right for you or anybody, right?
It's like, but this is my experience, which is all about acceptance right now. And you could call that different things. Some people call it surrendering, right. Or whatever it would be. But for me, my work, my present work is acceptance. And that also means accepting that somebody else might not be in the same place as me.
Right. Somebody might be in the cosmos. Somebody might be on the mountain. Somebody might be in the river. And for me to just accept that they are where they are. That's such an important skill to have as a dad. That's such an important skill to have if you're working with teams. Um, yeah. That's my experience.
[00:31:52] Ali: Totally, man. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that personally. I'll also say that I became aware of this on a podcast that you did with one of our buddies, Hal. Mm-hmm you and Hal Elrod were talking. This was a couple years ago earlier in my FRD journey. And he was sharing a story about his camping trip. I'll link to this into show notes, I even got the opportunity to thank Hal, when we hung out a while ago in person, but the lesson I learned was exactly what you shared. Like damn, who am I to try and change my wife. Right.
And ever since then, not only did it drastically change the course of our relationship, which continues to get stronger with its challenges, like you mentioned. But I've noticed JV now that's in this great place, but there's a different relationship with my kids. And so I'm on a different path in acceptance of them, which is not the same. For me, it's not the same.
You know, cause I have this beautiful son who's six year old and has all these amazing qualities that I love. And then he's got this amazing way to trigger me. Like no one else. Yeah. I've got this other just cute precious daughter. There's times where my heart melts and I'm like, I don't wanna be anywhere else, but here. And then there's other times where she does things and I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. How can I accept this right dude? Right.
So it's this interesting game, dude. But then so I wanna echo what you said and at least share with the audience that I've found a lot of wisdom and support in this acceptance of, I'm not trying to change anybody. And it's not always easy.
[00:33:34] Jon: Yeah. And can you accept yourself for wanting to change that person?
[00:33:37] Ali: There you go, right?
Yeah, totally man. Okay. Healing, acceptance. Anything else in focus for I jam on a couple other questions I wanted to ask you about?
[00:33:50] Jon: I mean, geez. Do we can, yeah, I, I, no, let's go wherever you want. Okay. Cool. Throw me something new.
[00:34:01] Ali: For sure. So at risk of not asking things that you may answer, one of the things that I'm curious about as your friend, as a member of FRD is twofold. Your biggest challenge, growing a remarkable community like front row dads, and then the, your biggest reward?
And if that's a boring ass question, we'll talk about something else.
[00:34:26] Jon: No, it's very important to me. The community's very important to me. Yeah. I think the biggest challenge that we face and I have buddies that I think would probably say something similar, which is finding and aligning with the right people.
To me, this is the greatest challenge in all areas of my life. It's like, how do you find and align with the right teachers, the right school? How do you find and align with the right coaches or the right therapist or the right community? Or whatever it is, right.
The right people are like, I'm gonna find the right church. They're looking for the right alignment partners and team they're looking for team. Yep. So when it comes to the business, I think that that is always the question. Like, how do you find the right person that has the right skillset to do the right job?
Now there's always the back end part of a business that you juggle with, like, well, how much is your revenue and how much do you spend mm-hmm to grow the business? And you're always playing that game. Like, well, if we spend the money, then we'll probably make more money. And the reason we want front row ads to be successful financially, we want it to be strong. We want it to work as a business model is because that's what will give it sustainability.
That's what we think will help us to reach more men around the world. And to solidify what we have now with 300 people with maybe 3000 people or maybe one day 30,000 people. Something that would live well beyond me. Something that's bigger than any one person. Something that is community built, that also has the right heart.
Like what we know enough from the 300 people who've all said yes to joining the community is that they're all in alignment. Like this doesn't exist and it should exist. It's good for me. It's good for the planet. This is important. I just think it's got legs to grow. So who do we grow with? Who are the right people?
And that also means replacing myself. Like I've talked about this, right. I don't think I'm the future CEO of front row dads. I don't think I'm the COO. I'm not the CFO. I am an owner. I'm an influence on the company. I'm a participant in the building of the company. But that's my greatest challenge that I faced right now.
Which is a great problem to have, by the way. Like of all the problems we could be facing. We actually have very few problems. You have a unique peak into different aspects of our business, but it's like, this is so great. We have such a great group and there's so much going well, totally. Such a great current team. Like our current team is amazing.
The flip side of that was, what am I most excited about? Or what am I right? Was that the flip side of that? What am I most energized by? Or what's going on?
[00:37:05] Ali: Yeah, like what's been the greatest reward of creating and growing a community like FRD?
[00:37:11] Jon: Yeah. The greatest reward of this particular business is that it does not require me.
I'm I'm not the lynchpin. Mm-hmm, , I'm not the guru, the thought leader. I don't feel a tremendous amount of pressure. Like sure I'll share some thoughts. I'll ask some questions. I'll chime in. I'll I'll give my 2 cents on things, but dude, I love the fact that it's happening without me. Mm-hmm it is so incredible to see the thing working without me needing to be there.
Now I wanna play the game sometimes. Like if we're all playing baseball, like put me in. I wanna play. I wanna hit, I wanna, I wanna run, I wanna do the game with everybody. But, don't want it to be like, well, if John leaves, we all leave or right. Or like, I've got the only ball in the bat and the glove, and everybody's just kind of hanging, waiting for me.
I feel like we really built something and this is from day one that I've wanted it to be that way. So we've been very intentional and that's the greatest reward to see things happening. To see men sending messages. I could literally bring one up right now. We have a slack channel that's titled, wins and we have another one called what's working.
And, what was the one that was sent to me? It was a, a message from somebody. I don't know if I'll be able to find it here quickly. It was this beautiful message of a guy, basically sending a message to Rachel, our community manager, talking about how this group changed their life. And I mean, I can find it and read it to you at some point, but that to me is like the most incredible part of this whole thing.
Mm-hmm messages like that. Hey, I connected with my kids. Hey, I was gonna get divorced and now I'm in a great spot. You know, if that happens, if somebody is a more proud of where they are as a family man, you know that's why we're here.
[00:39:12] Ali: I love it. Yeah. I love it. I don't even think I have anything else to add to that because I could go on a soapbox um, what F FRD has done for my life, but I've been intentional about blogging and talking about that. And I will continue to do that. I wanna stay on the train that you kind of mentioned before that...
[00:39:31] Jon: Oh, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I just, I just saw it. Sorry do it. We'll go back to the train here in a second, but listen, this was a message.
Actually there's this whole channel's filled with these types of things, but this was actually, I take it back. This was one that was sent to me that I sent to Rachel from a friend, right. Said I just wanted to let you know, I was working at an event when a customer came up and asked if I knew who you were. Said that her husband is a part of front row dads and that your program single handedly saved their marriage.
I didn't get a chance to ask the name, cuz it was very quick, but I thought that was the coolest. Wow, yep. That, that just came in a couple of days ago. And I, I shared that. I thought that was great. Sorry. I didn't mean I just saw it and I was like, I gotta share this.
[00:40:17] Ali: That is, was very, very worthy of...
[00:40:20] Jon: So fun man. I mean, to me, that's the best . If I'm paying attention to my energy going up or down, like, you know, that's a lot of fuel for me right there.
[00:40:29] Ali: Hell yeah. The train that I mentioned is that you kind of inadvertently asked like, well, what was the question? Around where am I getting energy in my life?
I think that's such a beautiful question. So it doesn't necessarily have to be tied to FRD. Clearly it's giving you some energy, but is there another place in life that's been sparking energy?
[00:40:48] Jon: Dude, can I pick a couple? Absolutely.
I hired a personal trainer at the gym, something I've never done before in my whole life. I always kind of like looked down upon that. Right. And I hired a personal trainer and it's been amazing. I'm just so grateful for this. I'm being pushed. I'm learning, I'm trying new things and it's fantastic. I get a lot of energy thinking about that.
I am doing like fun, adventurous things with Tatiana. I'm getting a lot of energy. I'm also really scared to be honest with you. Like we're gonna go to burning man at the end of this month. Mm-hmm and see, I'm slightly terrified about going to burning man. Mm-hmm um, for a lot of reasons. I mean, you and I could have a whole chat about this. She sent me a picture of one of the outfits she's gonna wear and I was like, you're gonna wear that?
And really what I mean by that? You're not right. Gonna be wearing something there. You know, like, dude, I was like, oh my heart's racing. My heart's racing. There's just things that are happening in my life that are very energizing, but also terrifying and scary. So burning man I'd throw in that camp is like new and adventurous and out of my comfort zone on some ways.
Uh, we're sending tiger to Tim Nickolaev's school that he created for junior high. And it's a very unique experience for junior high. They're like, what if we reimagined junior high and we can make it anything we want, what would it be? That's where we're sending our son this year.
It's in its second year. There's 14 kids. There's seven girls and seven boys. And I'm just so thrilled that we trying things. We're not just like, well, I went to public school when I was a kid, so I'm gonna send my kids to public school and they're like, but this sucks. And you're like, yeah, it sucked for me too but I learned grit.
I want my kids to know grit and I think life's gonna kick 'em in the nuts a few times anyway. So I don't think I need to work too hard for that. I think they're gonna be a lot of challenging moments and they've already had some challenging moments. And they've learned a lot from them, but man, I'm, I'm, I'm pumped by that.
And I'm pumped by space right now and quiet. So like, when I think about waking up in the morning, I used to pride myself on how fast I could get going. And now the question is, how slow can I get going? Ooh, how can I sit there and not do anything? I realize that's not everybody's problem. I have no problem going going has never been my issue. Like I'm wake up, go.
Yep. I actually need to learn how to wake up and slow. And that's what I've been trying to do. Sit on my porch with a cup of coffee and not journal, not read anything, not make a phone call, not add to my to-do list. I try so hard to do that and create space for something to emerge that would not have grown if it were so crowded.
Gardens so crowded, there's so much shit there already. It's like, well, what happens if I just, you know, clear a little space, see what's possible there. Maybe I'll be surprised. What seed will then be able to express itself.
[00:43:50] Ali: Totally. I love that for a lot of reasons. The word space is very, very triple, very important to me.
I'm working on something that has excited me for the first time in a long time, that has a very direct relationship to space. And I see you doing that, which is an inspiration. Like that text I sent you when I was like, you got chickens, bro?
[00:44:14] Jon: Right.
[00:44:15] Ali: Right. Like you take action, which I admire, cuz that's something I find myself, I get stuck in fear.
And then I just kind of like, oh, well I'll just put this down instead of drive through the fear, experiment. So that's really cool. I'll have to ask Tim about this school. That sounds super exciting.
[00:44:33] Jon: Yeah, it's really cool man. It's really cool. It's just based on, you know, what would happen if you took a kid and said, what do you want?
And then if you can teach him all the things in life. Like tiger wants to be an actor, right? He loves theater. He loves to sing. He loves to dance. He wants to be an actor. So, okay you wanna be an actor? Well, if you're an actor, you probably wanna learn how to manage your finances. Right?
So now let's learn math from that perspective, because it's necessary to pursue your dream. You may be more excited to learn something if there's a reason why mm-hmm . I mean, duh, because, you know, I remember reading the dream manager, my Matthew Kelly years ago, and it's like, why should you care about all your employees' dreams?
And it's like, well, if you can figure out a way to know what they dream about and then their job, even if it's just the community at their job, helps them to get to live out their dream or parts of their dreams list, they'll be more likely to stay in your company and be part of that community. If that's helping them to become the person and do the things that they wanna do in their lives.
Well, I think we might be able to back that up with children and do more of that, where we start asking them, who do you wanna be? What do you want to do in your life? And who cares if he changes his mind 18 times from now?
But if he's practicing the skill of what do I want, who am I, how does that feel in my body? What do I need to learn? What's gonna help me get there. Then we can constantly be changing which mountain we're climbing. And we likely will many times, but we start to develop the process and the skill of honoring where we are, where we wanna be and then making a path to get there.
[00:46:06] Ali: Yeah, that is awesome.
I was just discussing this with my mom, actually getting into a bit of a debate where talking about education and what are we allowing kids creating space for them to even learn to pursue. And then my cousin happened to be there who is in her early twenties and has some challenges around finding employment after getting through college.
And just like the education system is a whole dynamic topic, but what has become fairly lost in most let's just call 'em traditional institutions is the choice. And that's what it is. That's what I heard there amongst other things is like, give 'em a choice. Mm-hmm show 'em the things, let them choose and sound like, ah, bet, you gotta have these cuz you're gonna need these.
So I really admire that. We've been researching a little about forest schools as well, and just other creative schools that are following a path, more designed around true choice. Because some schools and systems and employers say they give you choice, but then you get in there they're like, oh yeah, this is our system. This is our curriculum. Take a seat.
Instead of being like welcome, choose. Right. Which is a pretty big shift. Which is why it's hard for, for some people to get around. But I think that's awesome, man. Yeah.
On the topic of energy, going back to FRD for a moment, you are throwing a very big event. F FRD is start a very big event in December that it's never done before.
I imagine there's different sorts of energy that have come with this, this project. Is that true? Yeah. Oh yeah. Tell us a little bit about it. Cuz I know the surface level details and I'm curious not only just to understand more about it, but to share with people here. But I feel like there may be a part of me that wants to bring people here if it's an opportunity for that.
[00:48:03] Jon: Yeah. So this is an event that's open to the public. Members can come, they can bring their friends. We've never done that before. Mm-hmm so we've for six years, seven years now we've been doing these retreats twice a year. But we can only put a certain number of people in those events.
And there's a lot of people who will come to us and say, I really want to go to a live event. We're like, man, we really want you to go, but we just don't have the structure for that right now. And now we do. For the first time, we now can host our community and their buddies that could come in.
So yeah, December 2nd through the fourth in Austin, we're doing Front Row Dad Live and it's gonna be incredible. It's gonna be a mixture of just the right messages. Short, punchy, right to the point. Get you thinking, get you learning something great, but then you need to go talk about it. You need to turn and have a discussion and think it through and ask, how does this apply to my life? And then make decisions that you can then take back to your family. There needs to be an integration.
So just sitting and listening to somebody who doesn't change your life, most of the time. Either the integration is the part that changes your life. Right. And, not to take away what speakers have to say. They can be very insightful, but it's the application of that insight that makes the biggest difference. And that's what the brotherhood is for. That's what the community is for. That's where you get a chance to hash it out with somebody in the room.
So we've got basically three days of this. People are gonna fly in from all over. We've started selling tickets. We've got a star studded lineup of speakers. You mentioned Hal Elrod earlier. I mean, Hal gets, you know, many, many, many thousands of dollars to give a speech. But, fortunately he happens to be one of my best friends.
He's coming in. He is gonna be speaking to the group. He wrote the miracle morning in case you guys didn't know it's published in 37 different languages. He's got a movie on Amazon prime. I know you can get it called the miracle morning, go watch the movie.
Um, but Hal's gonna be there. Also one of his co-authors Mike McCarthy. Which interestingly enough, I was wake surfing with this morning. My son is in Mike's house right now as we speak. Yeah. But Mike wrote the miracle morning for parents and families and inside is how to create your family values and the family meetings and all these different things that they've used successfully within their beautiful family. And Mike's gonna be there.
So we've got my buddy Preston smiles. Preston has four kids under the age of five years old. If you don't know who Preston is, by the way, just go look him. He's got quite a following online and he's... uh, the way I would describe Preston is he lives a life that inspires people.
Mm. He is very much somebody who is a spiritual teacher for me. He's expansive. He's bright and VI like, I, he has a cool factor by the way that I will likely never have in my life. And, uh, it's always so funny I'm telling somebody about that the other day. I'm like, I don't know if I'll ever be as cool as Preston, but I'm sure glad he is a friend. But Preston will be there.
And we've got Justin Donald who wrote the lifestyle investor and leads a massively successful investment group. But his whole point is how do we make investments? How do we grow our wealth so that we can spend time with our family?
And there's other people that I'm gonna leave as surprises that we have that are gonna be there.
But dude, it's gonna be a bunch of great guys in a room. Having a deep immersive experience to gain momentum so that we can be family men with businesses, not business men with families. And if somebody's really serious about wanting to show up for their family, and they're a high performer, they're a high achiever. If they're, you know, resonate with being a business owner, entrepreneur, this is the room for them. And there's no other room like it in the world that has this focus.
There's lots of other masterminds, lots of other business masterminds. Mm-hmm , nobody has decided, intentionally and on purpose and branded themselves and brought it to the room that the intention is family first. And that level of accountability and that container that we built is very unique.
And it's life changing, you know, to be Frank, which is why we're in our seventh year. And it's just growing like crazy. But it's growing the right way too. This is not an event for everybody. Not every dad would find that this is their group. But for some guys who hear what I just said, they're like, that's my crew.
Yep. Right guys, like Ali. If that's who's there, then I want in on that. And that's the group.
[00:52:08] Ali: Totally, man. It's the event. Well, and something I'll add to that is that some of these guys that you just mentioned, most of which I've met in person and then others that there's not enough time to name, and then the surprises you have. These are extraordinary people.
And I'm not just saying because of the status you see that they may have in the world, but it's because these are men that are as humble as they are successful. And I felt that that's so true. You know what I'm saying? Because when I first came to the community and going to that first live event, I was scared as shit. This was three years ago.
But the warm welcome. And then the ability to just like have conversations that are real and meaningful is the power, the magic of this. And this is a unique opportunity because you're opening it up, which is very, very exciting. So I'm gonna be pushing to see if I can get some guys there. Just to share.
Cuz that's one of the things I, I was just talking with my band, not too long ago, having some guilt on going to the retreats. I was like, I feel like I need to let other dudes go to these retreats. right. Then there's the FOMO, the connection of being like, yo, but twice here I need this. Like my people, you know. So I just wanna speak highly in authentic words that these are extraordinary men and it's not a place to walk into, like you said, of traditional business masterminds. It's a place like yo, we're here to talk about dad hood.
[00:53:39] Jon: So yeah. Yeah. And these are men that, you know, it's not the cheapest ticket price for any event you could go to. But we're also not after the people that would want [sure] the cheapest ticket price. We're after the guys who are like, I want to invest in a community.
And that's how I look at it. Like everybody's chipping in. What we're doing is we're buying stock and the spot in what we believe in to be a a community that the world needs. So we're not only buying our spot at the event. We're buying a spot for Front Row Dads in the world that helps front row dad to fulfill its mission.
That's the investment. If I'm supposed to vote with my dollars, if I'm supposed to put my energy and my resources and in an area where it matters. I want, I wanna support a group of guys who are all like, yes, let's kick ass in business. Sure, let's have some cash in the bank. We're not gonna feel bad about that. We think that everybody should, and we're gonna lead by example, but we're definitely not gonna do it at the expense of our family.
[00:54:33] Ali: For sure. Well said, brother. You wanna wrap up with a few fun fire questions?
[00:54:41] Jon: How could we not? I mean, let's go.
[00:54:43] Ali: All right. All right. So the first one, what's the best book you've read lately.
[00:54:51] Jon: Hmm. So, yeah, props to Isaac Stegman for giving me this book, he handed it to me and he is like, I just felt called to get you this book. I don't know. It just felt like it would be right up your alley. And the book is called Beqoming mm-hmm . Um, but it's spelled with a Q B E Q. I would butcher, I think the names of the authors, if I tried.
But I think if you looked up becoming, you would find it B E Q got black cover. So that book was fascinating for me. And it would be hard to do it justice, but I would say that I feel like the authors were on a similar path in some ways that I am on right now. And so much of what you and I have already talked about on this show, especially when it comes to healing. Mm-hmm , it was a big theme of that book.
It's written from an entrepreneur, high achiever, somebody that was looking for meaning and purpose and love. And needed to shatter some old beliefs and understand ego and understand trauma and fear and pain and how all this was driving his life and her life.
It was co-authored by a, a man and a woman. And it's sexy. It's, you know, it's deep. They did a great job. They really did. And I don't give compliments like that lightly on books. I think they did a really great job. So I'm very impressed. And I found out they happened to be connected to some people in our community.
Who knows maybe I crossed paths with them at burning man. I can say, thanks in person. I think they're gonna be there. But I will tell you that it was fascinating for me. And it's gonna be polarizing for some people if they read it. Cuz it's definitely touching on subjects that are, you know, gonna be challenging for people to step into. Perhaps.
It's not a book for everybody. Maybe you just preview it a little bit, get a vibe before you buy it. Cuz it's not a cookie cutter run of the mill, like every other personal growth book mm-hmm and that I'm not poking at those books. They're important. But it felt to me very unique and very different.
[00:57:02] Ali: Perfect. Those are the books I like, so thank you. Yeah. All right man next one. What's the funniest thing one your kids has said lately. I'm gonna guess this might come from Ocean.
[00:57:12] Jon: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good guess. Did I ever tell you that I have a, a running? Oh, I probably did. I...
[00:57:18] Ali: You shared the, I have the dialogue. I shared with my kids and we laughed for almost an hour dude, right?
[00:57:27] Jon: Yeah. Probably the sweetest one on that sheet. So I write down these funny things that my son says. He and his buddy Razzi mm-hmm . Um, but yeah, the one that I felt was the cutest was, and they were fighting in the back and I turned around and I kind of raised my voice and I was like, guys, you've gotta be quiet. Like I'm driving a car type of that typical dad moment, very typical dad moment.
And my son just pauses and he looks up at me and he goes, um, April fools. It was like the most perfect response. It wasn't April fools, by the way, it wasn't even close to April fool's, but that was his way of getting out of it. April fools.
Um, and maybe, maybe it's one of those, like you had to be there, but that was, it was adorable. When I think of other funny things. Um, God, man. Ocean has constant funny things that he says.
[00:58:19] Ali: What about the, you could share the one about, I don't know if Ocean or Razi said it, but about if Tiger dies, what they'll do?
[00:58:26] Jon: Oh yeah. Yeah. When my, when my big brother dies I'll get all of his money and I'll share it with you. That was another one. um, Yeah. The, the conversation they were having about living inside their butthole was fun. How can I live inside my butthole when it's my butthole? That was a question that they were wrestling with. If they wanted to live inside their butthole.
That these were like seven year old conversations. Oh man. Uh, I think the funniest stuff, maybe it's just, cuz I'm really a teenage boy at heart, but it's like any comments that Ocean will say about his penis is like, I just find hysterical. You know, it's just really, really funny.
[00:59:06] Ali: Um, dude. Okay. So something we don't have time to go super deep on this, but I've been really paying attention to the joy. I want to emphasize the joy that young children get in talking about private parts.
[00:59:20] Jon: Yeah. Poop, peanut. Yeah. All of, all of it, for sure.
[00:59:24] Ali: They love it. And I even laugh at it. Like I'm a big farter in my house. I've got a funny story about Sepia farting in an airport, which is, I'll share another time. But dude, it is amazing to me how it just lights them up and it's like infectious. And it got me thinking that there's definitely a point in our lives where it becomes serious.
It's probably when we start understanding a bit about sex. But , we could talk about farts and butts and all the things, and it never goes outta style with them.
[00:59:58] Jon: Which yeah, it's hysterical. They constantly, you know, they're brothers. So you can imagine. Yes. It's, uh, it's really funny. The Ocean said something the other day about how maybe he goes, it's funny or it's unfair or whatever it was.
He goes, oh, it's funny. Women have two butts. They have the front butt and the back butt. There you go. I was like, that's great. Women have two butts. Uh, yeah, just entertaining conversations like that on the regular.
[01:00:28] Ali: Totally.
Yeah. Okay. Last question. I'm gonna throw a little audible here. Where would you and Tatiana live, if you could choose anywhere in the world? And just thinking about this as home base, or if you would design a lifestyle where you were living in different places.
[01:00:46] Jon: Yeah. Basically I feel like we, we do live exactly where we wanna live in the world. We thought about that. We could live anywhere that we would want to in the world for the most part, but this is where we wanna live in Austin right now.
Uh, and that could change, but presently that's it. I would like to live in the mountains in July and August. I would like to, to maybe depart Austin during those months. So that would be kind of the ideal. And we would like to do some traveling, just, you know, to expand our kids view of the world and because it's fun.
And I'm really happy right now. I really love where we are and don't really crave living anywhere else. I bet you, if you asked Tatiana, she would tell you Hawaii, Costa Rica, mm-hmm maybe somewhere like that. Mm-hmm , that would be good. But we're too plugged in our community right now. We want to be here, so it might be fun to visit those places or visit them for extended periods of time.
But it's really where such people, people that it's our community that we love. And so wherever we would go, we would just lose our community. And that be, is it here where we are our most important, you know, piece of our life?
[01:01:57] Ali: Totally, man, it sounds like you've created a home, not a house.
[01:02:01] Jon: Yeah. A hundred percent.
Yeah. A hundred percent. That's what it feels like for the first time truly. There have been like little samplings of it all over like pieces of a city that we loved people that we loved in that city. But it was the first time that we, I think, knew who we were. And other people were figuring out who they were.
And I mean, that's the benefit of being 47 is you just have a couple of years under your belt of figuring that kind of stuff out. Maybe we have more resources than we've ever had before to be able to pursue some of those values that we, we love. And so here we are.
[01:02:33] Ali: Perfect. Okay, man. That's an awesome place to end. This feels complete unless there's anything left unsaid from your side.
[01:02:40] Jon: Oh, just gratitude for you, man. I want to thank you for doing the show. I want to thank you for how you're showing up for yourself and your family and your friends right now. Your curiosity. Yeah, your quest that you're currently on is fun to watch.
It's fun to see you be in a place of curiosity. You're exactly the type of person that I want to surround myself with because of that. Cuz I know, you know, a lot of shit, you're a man of deep wisdom and you have a lot of humility that goes along with it and you're staying in this playful place in life. And sometimes it'll feel serious and sometimes they're serious subjects, but you're willing, I think to explore.
And that to me is one of the hardest things to do at times. But one of the most inspiring things. Like actually if I had to pick a word, that's really it. It's like people that scare me and inspire me are those who explore. Because if you explore, like you don't know what's around that corner, but that's part of the juice of life too.
So I'm like yes and no and I'm teetering back and forth. So as many people that can pull me into uncomfortableness, like my wife does on the regular, it's alivening for me. And you're one of those guys and I'm grateful for anybody that's supporting you in your life because you're important to me.
So anybody that's listening to this, anybody that loves you, that knows you, that's getting to know you. You know, falling in love with Ali. Like it's great, man. You've got a great community. I'm so glad that you're, we're aligned in this Front Row Dad mission together. I can't imagine it without you. And I'm just grateful.
So hopefully we'll see you and some of your friends and maybe other people that are listening to this in December. It'd be great to, to hang in person.
[01:04:17] Ali: Okay, man. Thank you. Those are beautiful words. I am equally honored to have you my life and that you just created space for this. So thank you. It was awesome to hear some real stories, some real juice, which you laid down today. So...
[01:04:32] Jon: I can always promise real stories. They might not be real funny. They might be real scary. They might be, but they're real. They're real.
[01:04:41] Ali: Hell yeah. Until the next time.
Ali is a creator who's passionate about guiding people to their truth. That's a fancy way of saying he wants to help people realize their most authentic life. He's a father, husband, podcaster, blogger, technologist and many other things that inspire him to stay curious and learn. He's also a huge advocate for nature, hiking, adventure, testing physical limits and experiencing the natural world.